Poland is by far the freest country in Europe

Bea Bakó & Benedek Pál

Ryszard Legutko held a lecture in Budapest (with the title: Remembrance of Communism and New Ruptures in Europe) on the invitation of the XXI. Century Institute (XXI. Század Intézet). The interview was conducted with him on this occasion by a Hungarian portal azonnali.hu.

Poland have received the same 7th article procedure as Hungary did from the European Union for the licvidation of free judicature, but the main ideologist and a MEP of PiS tells a different story: that, in fact, the greatest freedom is in Poland. Ryszard Legutko held a lecture in Budapest (with the title: Remembrance of Communism and New Ruptures in Europe) on the invitation of the XXI. Century Institute (XXI. Század Intézet). He was asked by Azonnali if he agreed with Orbán that liberals were communists with a degree.

What is the greatest challenge what Europe faces today?

It is not the same if we are speaking about Europe, or about the European Union. For the European Union its biggest problem is the obvious rupture between the European societies´ anti-centralization and a bureaucratical centralist policy. It is very telling by the example of Brexit: Brexit was a victory for the anti-centralists, then the answer given to this by the European establishment was a hardening of any future exits, or even making such secessions impossible.

How deeply intertwined is the disparity between opposing or supporting centralization with the EU´s east-west divide?

It does not necessarily coincide. But there is a divide between east and west. But this is mostly about that Eastern European states, we have joined the EU later, as a subordinate partner, who are learning now how to behave, how to use a knife and a fork.

After a few years, however, we learned how to articulate our opinion. The rest of the EU still believes that they are somehow in a superior position: they can dictate conditions, tell us how the EU will go on, and all we have to do is agree with them.

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What you mentioned, that western countries would educate Easterners, when did that start? During the transition period?

Yes, absolutely, that was the beginning. You youngsters do not remember it, but when the transition began, the attitude in Eastern European countries was to copy the Western institutions and solutions.

There was an other option?

Yes.

What?

I will give you an example, which I remember vividly. After the fall of the Communist regime, in the academical circles we were talking about the reform of university system. My colleagues have said that there is no need for a reform, we only need to copy - and so that´s what happened with the whole education system. But we also copied the errors. Why did we introduce the Bologna system, for example? We could have done it any other way. So, if you live in a free world, you have to use your own intelligence, you have to invent yourself. If I say from the beginning that I will copy, I will give up using my mind.

For forty years, these societies were shaped by communism. In such a situation, it can be difficult to reinvent yourself just right away.

I don't think so. At the time I was here in Budapest at an international conference on rule of law. Young Hungarian politicians were also present, I do not remember their names. They talked about the fact that this society is completely corrupt, sovietized and that they would not accept any democratic solutions, we have to introduce them. By us, Polish politicians said exactly the same thing at the time. I was joking that yes, Polish politicians want democracy without the demos. Because people are not trustworthy. But that is not democracy.

And does PiS imagine democracy with the people? Is this why they are distributing the wealth?

In a democracy you are a representative of different social groups. When you sit in parliament, you are somehow bound by their votes. The danger we faced in Poland, and perhaps this was the case for Hungary and other countries too, that a kind of oligarchy was created. The people in power looked upon themselves as some chosen few who did not need to consult the people and they did what they saw fit.

That was an accurate description of what's happening in Hungary today, don't you think?

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the ruling party won the election.

Of course, but previous governments also won earlier elections, so they could form a government.

Don't ask me about the Hungarian situation because I don't know enough about it.

Then let's return to the transition period. In thirty years, can this be called a success story in Central Europe?

It´s a mixed story. We are in a better position than we were, but there are things that we neglected and things that we did wrong. In Poland, one of the main reasons for the emergence of an oligarchy was a deal between the anti-communist opposition and the Communist Party. The communists thus were saved and became owners of much of the Polish economy. This was obviously a mistake. There are things we need to correct now.

So the current Polish government is doing adjustments even when it supports the losers of the transition with social measurements?

Yes, that is right. When you think of the Solidarity Movement, there were tens of millions of people in it, and the movement achieved it thanks to hundreds of thousands of anonymous people who risked so much. If you were a university professor or an actor or a celebrity, you didn't risk much. But factory workers were going through very difficult times: they were arrested, beaten up. Kaczyński was the first to discover these people.

How could you define PiS's ideology in a few words?

In a few words it's not easy. The key idea - but not the only one - is the efficiency and functioning of public institutions. For years, public institutions in Poland have been held in custody by various interest groups, whether business, political or even external. They weren't independent. That is why PiS has focused from the outset on state institutions: to act as state institutions and not to benefit anyone else.

What about the freedom of individuals? How can it be guaranteed that independent courts are dismantled?

Oh! (Laughs.) First of all, I lived in other countries and I can tell you Poland is by far the freest country in Europe. There are things you can say and do in Poland, and things you can never say and do in France and Germany because they are going to put you in jail.

What can not be said, for example?

For example, about immigration…

If I say something bad about immigration in France, will I be imprisoned?

For example, they can fire you. A German writer was sentenced to two years, suspended. Political correctness is beginning to fade. But in Poland you can say anything you want. In addition, there is a very broad media spectrum from left to right - unlike in Germany, where there is a single medium, just under different names.

Or, as in Hungary, at least in most of the media.

I say, I do not comment on Hungary.

Do you agree that liberals are communists with a degree?

Only some of them has a degree.

Do you know, who said this?

Someone told me… your PM?

Yes. By the way, can you say only one thing that liberals are right about?

This is a serious question, and it has been asked of a philosopher. This opens up so many questions that one can not answer briefly. Read my recent article on why I'm not a liberal. In general, I can say that liberalism and liberals are against freedom. Don't be fooled by the etymology that liberalism comes from the word liberty.

What do you think is the reason for the Polish-Hungarian friendship, or does it exist at all?

I think it exists. Nobody knows how it started, but when you mention Hungarians here, it usually evokes warm emotions. For the Czechs, for the Slovaks, they are not necessarily indifferent. But Hungarians are treated as brothers by us.

Apart from Orban and Kaczyński? Would we still be good if we or you had a liberal government?

Your question concerned the Poles and the Hungarians. It is independent of politics. What was the name of the former prime minister here? Gyurcsány? I don't think he was particularly liked in Poland, but that didn't affect that Poles do like Hungarians. Don´t ask me why, but that´s how it is.